Re: The Critic in the Cabernet – SHOW DISCUSSION

by i_heart_bones on Tue May 12, 2009 6:24 am

Shelly wrote:Alright guys, here we go...

And one last question...touching as those last few scenes were...and even the scene in the interrogation room where Booth screams and gets choked up which I thought was very moving and wonderful acting on DB's part...what is the point of the tumor? Honestly, I don't understand its purpose. To give Booth hallucinations so that Stewie could tell him what he should have already known about himself? I don't get it...any of it...

....

Im guessing the point of the tumour is to a) have people that: Dont read sides (hehe not me) and aren't crazy obsessed fans, be concerned about his future on the show, and b) to enable the AU or hallucination episode.

by Shelly on Tue May 12, 2009 6:41 am

I get that it was a reason for the hallucination of Stewie, but why does he NEED that hallucination? What did Stewie tell Booth about himself that he didn't already know? And I know alot of others disagree with this but I thought the hallucination on the ship was justified considering his circumstances...I liked his buddy better as a ghost than as the side effect of a tumor..especially since Bones saw him too.

by flyersfan35 on Tue May 12, 2009 7:04 am

Shelly wrote:I get that it was a reason for the hallucination of Stewie, but why does he NEED that hallucination? What did Stewie tell Booth about himself that he didn't already know? And I know alot of others disagree with this but I thought the hallucination on the ship was justified considering his circumstances...I liked his buddy better as a ghost than as the side effect of a tumor..especially since Bones saw him too.

I loved the ghost...and I loved the hockey dream, too.

And I really don't think they made his tumor up to explain those two...they wanted some emotional plot to stir up your emotions, that's what I think. I personally liked the ep...other than Bones wanting the baby being so sudden. Of course, I've enjoyed most of the season, too.

by heirofloki on Tue May 12, 2009 8:58 am

Shelly wrote:I get that it was a reason for the hallucination of Stewie, but why does he NEED that hallucination? What did Stewie tell Booth about himself that he didn't already know? And I know alot of others disagree with this but I thought the hallucination on the ship was justified considering his circumstances...I liked his buddy better as a ghost than as the side effect of a tumor..especially since Bones saw him too.

I still believe Teddy was supposed to be a ghost. Brennan however, wouldn't know (or accept) that.

As for the hallucination telling him things he already knows. Well, it can hardly tell him things he doesn't know. I'm seriously not trying to be snarky. Hallucinations...well, in the case-studies I've read, the subject always hallucinate something that eventually ties back to something (current or past) in his/her life. Furthermore, emotions have in fact, been suspected of triggering hallucinations. So all in all, I found the hallucination normal. A little colored-up to fit tvland but not, you know, overly trippy for the sake of showmanship, which could have totally happened. I'm glad they had enough sense and it didn't.

I read somewhere else that the hallucination was too crazy, and I'm sorry but, What??! LOL. That's ...hilarious. No, hallucinations don't necessarily mean mental illness. In fact, in many cases they mean biological illnesses/unbalances. Whatever the case though, they are, in layman's terms, crazy shit. I mean, my god! You're sensing stuff that's NOT REAL. It doesn't matter that you are not crazy, I'm pretty sure you (or I or anyone) would feel insane at the realization. The way they conveyed that to the viewer is by having an extreme pop up. Stewie, the cartoon baby. Everything else, we could otherwise explain: Ghost, concussion... But cartoon baby? Uh-uh. No way. That's insane (or it feels that way, which is kinda the point)

In line with that, I also wanted to add, I really, really loved Brennan's reaction to the interrogation room. Have you've ever experienced someone having an hallucination right in front of you...The inescapable WTF-ness of the situation and then (for her, because she can't expa;in it), the urgency and fear. I think it was spot-on.

by flyersfan35 on Tue May 12, 2009 9:04 am

heirofloki wrote:
Shelly wrote:I get that it was a reason for the hallucination of Stewie, but why does he NEED that hallucination? What did Stewie tell Booth about himself that he didn't already know? And I know alot of others disagree with this but I thought the hallucination on the ship was justified considering his circumstances...I liked his buddy better as a ghost than as the side effect of a tumor..especially since Bones saw him too.

I still believe Teddy was supposed to be a ghost. Brennan however, wouldn't know (or accept) that.

As for the hallucination telling him things he already knows. Well, it can hardly tell him things he doesn't know. I'm seriously not trying to be snarky. Hallucinations...well, in the case-studies I've read, the subject always hallucinate something that eventually ties back to something (current or past) in his/her life. Furthermore, emotions have in fact, been suspected of triggering hallucinations. So all in all, I found the hallucination normal. A little colored-up to fit tvland but not, you know, overly trippy for the sake of showmanship, which could have totally happened. I'm glad they had enough sense and it didn't.

I read somewhere else that the hallucination was too crazy, and I'm sorry but, What??! LOL. That's ...hilarious. No, hallucinations don't necessarily mean mental illness. In fact, in many cases they mean biological illnesses/unbalances. Whatever the case though, they are, in layman's terms, crazy shit. I mean, my god! You're sensing stuff that's NOT REAL. It doesn't matter that you are not crazy, I'm pretty sure you (or I or anyone) would feel insane at the realization. The way they conveyed that to the viewer is by having an extreme pop up. Stewie, the cartoon baby. Everything else, we could otherwise explain: Ghost, concussion... But cartoon baby? Uh-uh. No way. That's insane (or it feels that way, which is kinda the point)

In line with that, I also wanted to add, I really, really loved Brennan's reaction to the interrogation room. Have you've ever experienced someone having an hallucination right in front of you...The inescapable WTF-ness of the situation and then (for her, because she can't expa;in it), the urgency and fear. I think it was spot-on.

I agree 100 %! I really liked the whole ep. And I never understood why everyone thought his hallucination/dream sequence in Fire in the Ice was so odd. *shrugs*

by a380fan on Tue May 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Shelly wrote:Alright guys, here we go...

My feelings about the Critic are much the same as my feelings about this whole season -Too much stuff waaaaay too soon. I mean, is anyone else getting that sense here?

Ya know, at first I wasn't crazy about this whole 'Brennan' wants Booth's baby' thing at ALL...but the more I thought about it, I felt if the writers did it the RIGHT way..delicately and with attentiveness, they could make it work. But low and behold, they didn't. Instead, they crammed it down our throats in one episode. I mean, come on. That's alot to swallow in 45 minutes. This was a seed that should have been planted WAY back in the beginning of the season, and allowed for slow growth throughout, so that by the end we feel rewarded with this huge plot development! I'm sorry but I don't feel like Booth and Bones grew at all this season. I don't feel like they learned anything from each other, or about each other. Their relationship hasn't evolved a millimeter, and yet now they are having a baby.

And actually, I thought they writers did a nice job showing how scared Brennan was of forming an emotional connection when she was talking to Angela about the sperm. I thought it was a good scene, and it's not even Brennan's decision that bothers me (she did defend it valiently with classic Bones logic after all). It was the fact that Booth basically decided within a minute and a half that he was all in on this thing. Booth, the devout catholic who cherishes marriage and the traditional family, and LOVE....just says...ok. And I know..he changed his mind and had his big epiphany by the end of the episode..but 1.) It shouldn't have been rushed and squeezed into one episode and 2.) There should have been ALOT more soul searching on both their parts. I feel if Booth were truely in character he would have denied the suggestion out right, then maybe gave it some consideration over time, and then finally decide he could not have a baby witih out being a father. Now, if they had started this story line months ago, we might have been able to see all this play out, but since they had to hurry up and get it all in last week there obviously wasn't time for all of that, and that isn't fair to us or to the characters. it feels cheap and contrived and honestly I feel a little jipped.

I don't know what went wrong this season, but it was like we had NO plot or character developmnent all season, and then all of a sudden the writers were like "oh crap! we wanted Brennan to want a baby and Booth to be the father, and we want Brennan to get more in touch with iher intuition, and we want her to become open to psychology, and we want Booth to have a brain tumor but we only have 3 episodes left!" Am I alone here?!

And one last question...touching as those last few scenes were...and even the scene in the interrogation room where Booth screams and gets choked up which I thought was very moving and wonderful acting on DB's part...what is the point of the tumor? Honestly, I don't understand its purpose. To give Booth hallucinations so that Stewie could tell him what he should have already known about himself? I don't get it...any of it...

*sigh* Sorry guys, I needed to vent, and I HATE saying bad things about our Bones, but I hate to see something that still has so much life and potential start circling the drain so soon....

Don't apologize for saying bad things about the show every now and then when the show deserves it. I agree with pretty much everything you say. It seems like most of the episodes were filler, then an occaisonal complex surprise in only one episode.

More later... have to go.

by Shelly on Tue May 12, 2009 6:11 pm

I see where you're coming from Hiero (and hey, I like snarkiness so don't worry about it Laughing

), but I disagree that a hallucination can't tell him something about himself that he doesn't already know. I mean, maybe the concept is there somewhere in his brain, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily conscious of it. I guess my point is, Booth is already very self aware of those aspects of his personality..his core values...he speaks of them, defends them. If the point of Stewie was to reveal something to Booth about himself that he wasn't aware of consciously....well then it should have been just that...something he wasn't aware of consciously. I feel conscious....even SEMI conscious Booth shouldn't have had any trouble making this decision and shouldn't have needed any help.

a380fan....thanks for backing me up! I was starting to worry that I was going to eaten alive ALONE out here. Razz

It's all in good fun...we'll all disagree from time to time and this was a very controversal episode, and I see everyone's point to some degree. I guess if we all agreed all the time noone would come here and bother to post!

by Shelly on Tue May 12, 2009 7:02 pm

Oh, and another thing I think would have helped those last few scenes a bit more believable would have been at least a phone call to Parker. I get it was a rushed surgery and there wasn't time to wait for people but I would think that if Booth was going into a serious operation that he may not survive, he'd atleast wanna talk to his son one more time.

by MoonlightGardenias on Tue May 12, 2009 9:05 pm

That's a good point. I mean, Parker has been mentioned more lately than in season's past, but we've still only seen him...what, once this season? It would've made sense for him to call him.

The whole thing about Stewie telling him something he did/didn't already know is kind of left up to interpretation, but knowing Booth, you would know he'd feel that way. He'd know he would feel that way. But--this is Bones he was dealing with, his partner, best friend, confidante, woman of his livfe pretty much. The person he'd do pretty much anything for. Even if what she was asking him to do wasn't rational, wasn't what he wanted, he was willing to put his need to make her happy above what he wanted, pushing that back somewhere deep in his mind. And also, it makes perfect sense that of all things to hallucinate, of all things his brain could have conjured...he saw a baby. Okay, so I'm really hoping their kid doesn't turn out into some evil football headed cartoon (sarcasm)...but still. Something to reflect his subconcious a little maybe?

The only thing that bugged me about this episode at all was that all of the emotional things, the teary stuff, was concentrated in the last few minutes. The whole episode felt off-kilter, but I loved it still. Brennan's wanting a baby didn't feel as random to me, I guess because I had read the spoilers and interviews, but the ending scenes kind of foreshadowed that 'something' was on her mind, that her viewpoint was changing. I didn't expect her to get the idea in her head in Sweets' office obviously, but I'm glad it worked that way.

by THX1138 on Wed May 13, 2009 2:02 pm

i_heart_bones wrote:
Shelly wrote:Alright guys, here we go...

And one last question...touching as those last few scenes were...and even the scene in the interrogation room where Booth screams and gets choked up which I thought was very moving and wonderful acting on DB's part...what is the point of the tumor? Honestly, I don't understand its purpose. To give Booth hallucinations so that Stewie could tell him what he should have already known about himself? I don't get it...any of it...

....

Im guessing the point of the tumour is to a) have people that: Dont read sides (hehe not me) and aren't crazy obsessed fans, be concerned about his future on the show, and b) to enable the AU or hallucination episode.

While I agree that it seemed to be something that Booth should have intrinsically known, something so basic to his makeup that I never could have believed he'd have accepted the proposal, I harken back to something Cam said (and I'm paraphrasing here): "You're going to do it so you can do it without really doing it."

Basically Booth agreed to give Brennan the baby for two real reasons. One, he loves her and can't really find it in him to deny her anything. Two, he's sure that if he tells her he loves her she'll bolt and run for the hills, or worse, end their partnership. Logically by giving Brennan the baby Booth could justify (in his diminished capacity) that he was establishing a permanent link to her without having to risk the fallout of a sexual relationship that could lead to them breaking up as partners and friends.

So he's in love with Brennan, yes, and he knows it but at the same time he's sure she doesn't feel that way about him, and he's sure if he tells her how he feels she'll run. Giving her the baby seemed like the logical way to make sure he could keep her to himself without risking losing her. The tumor gives is baby Stewie who acts as Booth's conscious and reminds him that underneath it all, he's not that man. He can't simply give her what she wants, not this time, he has to be involved in his child's life.

Robert Modean

by a380fan on Wed May 13, 2009 4:09 pm

heirofloki wrote:
In line with that, I also wanted to add, I really, really loved Brennan's reaction to the interrogation room. Have you've ever experienced someone having an hallucination right in front of you...The inescapable WTF-ness of the situation and then (for her, because she can't explain it), the urgency and fear. I think it was spot-on.

I volunteer as an EMT, and I do have to agree that Brennan did have an appropriate amount of 'WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?!?!?!?!' going on. My town is, how do you say this, full of crazy people. Perhaps, eccentric is better, but there are several severely mentally ill people who frequently walk around the down town area, and I have seen hallucinations first hand as both an EMT and as a regular person. It is a very odd and unsettling thing to watch. Especially when you have to try to deal with someone who's having one.

by Shelly on Wed May 13, 2009 10:24 pm

Ya know what THX? I think you are completely right on EVERYTHING you just said. It makes perfect sense with the nature of their relationship. I guess my issue with it all, is that he wen't through this internal struggle so FAST. Everything that you just said...thatm really moving internal struggle....it shouldn't have been resolved in one episode. It's not so much the decisions of the characters that bother me as it is the haste with which they were resolved. That's what makes it feel so contrived for me. Like the writers just came up with the idea while sitting on the pot the morning before shooting.

by DBCrazy on Wed May 13, 2009 10:54 pm

Shelly wrote: ... sitting on the pot ...

Now those are words that I never really thought I'd hear here in theABY! Those are words that pop out of my mama's mouth when you can tell she's hankerin' for the holler agin! Very Happy

by sadhbh on Thu May 14, 2009 12:53 am

I had a whole big thing here ready to go the other day, but it got deleted when I tried to post and I haven't had the time to rewrite it, so suffice to say, I mostly agree with the two Inkslingers that were written. A show of two halves, that weren't actually halves, but 35 mins and 10 mins. And those last ten mins were great, and there were parts before that I liked, and then parts not so much. But overall a good episode (ten mins of gold doesn't make it brilliant, unfortunately).

Anyhow, what I came here to post was my big "duh" moment! It took me, until after I had watched the ep, when I was back in here reading the title on a thread, that I read "Cabernet" as in wine, and not "Cabaret" as in that kind of pub-show music (or the Liza Minelli musical). How slow am I? LOL!