Re: The Future of Bones?

by Lo on Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:36 am

Hm I dont know, but I'm going to try an take this at face value from what I know and not to take dissect it deeply.

Bones was renewed for 2 seasons. Why two? Because Hart & Co. have probably already let the network know their timeline with the show and how they are going to finally bring B&B together. I mean all the other shows I thought were either cancelled or renewed for one more season.

Hart is working on a new pilot. He knows he's already got everything in place for Bones & he knows it will end at season 6. I know a lot of people probably will try to say he's calling it quits on it too soon & that he should bring the B&B together and try and write a couple episodes or even a season with them in that situation, but I would rather a show end in glory then be dragged out, exhausting storylines or even worse becoming the next Grey's Anatomy (no offense to any watchers). But I dont want a soap on my hands & I dont want the balance of cases/science with comedy & romance to be thrown off.

I think Season 6 might be the last.

by Thnx4theGum on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:02 am

I think the big problem when you start questioning things like this is the lack of perspective we as fans have when it comes to the television industry. We simply don't have the insider knowledge necessary to pronounce judgment on HH. Also, I think that the position that Fox has put the show in can be emphasized enough.

Here's the thing, going into season three, Bones was keeping the six million or so viewers that it needed to to stay on the air and be the utility man that Fox needed at the time. It had garnered a modicum of respect at this point because according to The Forensic Files, Fox came and asked for a season-long arc with a serial killer.

Enter Gormagon- which is really an awesome plotline if you think about it- and they start planting the seeds and building for a rich, character-based season that was also supposed to delve into Booth's background for the first time(let's face it, S1 & 2 are all about Brennan and how she coped/s with her family issues). They also, IMO, had a clear place that they wanted to take B&B by the end of the season- I'm thinking cusp of a relationship given the kiss in Slush.

So they're chugging along when all of a sudden the Hollywood scuttlebut that had been there EXPLODES into the foreground. This is where they hit the accelerator and some of the changes start to crop up. Read the Forensic Files and you find that they rushed to finish the season and actually had an ok wrap up(Wannabe). The strike, well, it sounds like no one had any clue that the thing would last so long and affect Hollywood as it did.

The stirke finally comes to a close and Fox, who has been holding episodes and making a mess of the schedule(this is the point where I dropped into the online community just to figure out when the show would be on), says oh, by the way, give us some more eps. Also around this time it sounds like it was becoming clearer that Eric Millegan needed more help than he could get doing the show.

Thus you have PItH. Not a bad finale, but not satisfying for the fans(who loved Zack and had no CLUE what was going on with EM) I don't think we can really blame HH for it b/c he and the writers did the best they could given the obstacles. You also have the hitch in the development of the B&B ship, which- IF there had been a full season would most likely have gotten them futher- but instead it kind of meandered its way through S4(my mind goes to Moses and the Israelites wandering the desert; they learned some things but they could've gotten there a lot sooner). [caveat: I actually get the reluctance to move them forward without anything to replace the UST with, but they have one of the few couples that they could easily pull it off with.]

Coming into season 4, you still have the network meddling with things. Ordering 26 episodes and extending filming into the summer trying to make up for lost time. Now, season four. I really didn't mind Season four. No, it wasn't the same as the preceeding seasons, but it was still better than most of the other TV I was watching. I'm not Pollyanna enough to tout it as the best season ever, but once I got my blu-rays and started watching them outside of the expectations I had I liked a lot more episodes than I had initially.

I also think I hit upon something key: Season four lacked direction; that is, there doesn't seem to be the focus on getting the show/characters to a certain spot. For a few reasons, perhaps, not least of which was that suddenly Fox(and HH too, maybe?) decided that Bones wasn't serialized so they started writing eps and airing them in whatever order the network wanted. I also think that HH was gunshy about trying an episodic arc given how Gormagon had imploded on him. The only hint that there was some small arc was the hallucinations/whatever forshadowing the tumor.

The other major shift seemed to be that someone(maybe HH? maybe the network?) decided to test and see how Bones would work as a romantic comedy over and above a crime show; trading in black humor for lighter- sometimes campy- comedy. I think this is where the camps of fans started to divide. Some took offense at the shifting, others didn't.

But here's the kicker: we can critique and pine for the good ol' days til we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that Season four garnered the highest ratings of any other Bones season. The little engine finally had picked up steam. This to me says that you cannot write off season four as a failure because PEOPLE WERE WATCHING! Like it or not, Hart Hanson was doing his job and the network HAD to be happy. Bones was shifted the Thursday nights and instead of being pummled, they started chipping away at the other shows on this very crowded night.

S4 four finale. Guys, I really think that HH visualized himself penning an opus. An opus that paid tribute to all of his loyal viewers who had stuck with him and the show and gotten them up out of obscurity and in as viable contender amongst the other networks and one that would set a brand new tone for the next season. It's not fair to say he doesn't care about the fans because he does. He knows we're out there and this was meant to be his sincere thanks. I'm not so sure that ego even played a role, he just thought he had something great to share with his fans so he went for it.

The problem was, something backfired and so many people didn't see it the way HH meant it. I still wonder if it would have fared better as a mid-season "finale" because it's really NOT a bad episode, but that's poinless because it wasn't, it was at the end. So instead of the thanks he was expecting, HH started taking a lot of grief.

This is where I think it gets unfair and I really get a bad taste in my mouth when people say things like "this was crap" "HH can't write" or whatever. It assumes far too much and neglects the obvious facts that he did SOMETHING right because the show GREW~~~to the point that now- during a season that some are still critiquing harshly- it's DOMINATING on a night that it shouldn't.

Did you even envision the day when Bones would beat CSI in the ratings and make Survivor at least stop and acknowledge that other television exists on Thurs at 8? Or when Fox would lean so heavily on the show it did it's best to write off early on? For the first time, Fox is playing with the big boys on Thursday nights and putting up a good show of it.

In early spring of 2009, HH put himself out there on Twitter; again, I'm not so sure he knew what he was getting himself in for(and yeah, a part of me wonders if he wanted to be in the crowd when his opus dropped) but he did it. And he's stayed there. In spite of all of the very rude folks out there who tell him he and/or his writing is crap and who want to live in the past. So yeah, he's going to come off as egotistical sometimes b/c he's earned it: he's exec producer on a HIT tv show that's up to 100 eps. The man has talent!

The two year pickup doesn't seem like it's something that HH asked for. In fact, it reads to me like a show of respect from the network: Here, take two seasons to build your audience even higher and we'll see where it goes from there. Let's not forget that at the end of the day, Bones is a buisness.

Fox is a handsy network, so we've seen their influence, but by and large they've given the writers this season. In return, the two season pickup gave the writers the chance to refocus and go back to the characters and plotting out their journeys. Thus it's already a tighter season than last year and promises to be even more so in the coming 8 episode arc. Reading HH's keynote address it seems like some events are set in stone almost and the rest develop organically as the season unfolds.

As for season five, I love, love, LOVE Booth 2.0. Yeah, he wasn't his strong, sure self at the beginning but that totally tracks for a guy who has daddy issues deep down AND the coma thing. Do I have gripes here and there? Sure. But I'd be more concerned if he was the same character from two or three years ago b/c he wouldn't have grown. Pudding was the apex of everything that Booth 2.0 is now and I was so glad to see that his faith is still a part of him. They've given us a flawed Booth, which means they've got plenty he can work on in the coming seasons.

I've really enjoyed the subtle and not so subtle shifts that Brennan has been given too. They've really brought her character far this year and are totally priming her for a long-term relationship with Booth.

I know I'm an optomist by nature; I know that I tend not to see the glass as half empty. But I also look at the facts and the fact is that NO ONE has the right to bash a man with the obvious talent that HH has when he has taken a show and DOUBLED it's fan base in the span of two years and taken on the other, bigger, networks. It's not fair to him!

Yeah, we fans play a part and there is something to be said about keeping a pulse on how the fans feel and dragging out the will they/won't they, but are we that egotistical that we take a large chunk of credit for its success??? I should hope not.

As far as speculation for the future, I don't see Fox shutting it down after next season if the ratings ontinue to grow. It'll be interesting to see how this new HH show pans out(pilots die as fast as they're made so anything could happen). Also, remember that it's not just HH and SN(who seem to be great friends and collaborators) but Barry Josephson and ED and DB as well.

Once the next eight eps air, we'll have more of an indicator as to where the show's headed relationship-wise and THEN we can start in on whether or not HH & Co. are anti-shipper or just playing their cards close to the vest. They're at a unique place now where I think they all realize that something's gotta give, but the what and how much and how soon are the big factors. If this was last season, I might be more worried, as it is, I'm not. Bones always shines brighest when there is a plan and it from all indications these last episodes are designed to help us put some things into perspective and take the characters in a specific direction. It's their biggest plan yet. Should be entertaining to say the least.

Either way, I'm riding this puppy til they yank it off the air.

Gum Smile

by treble21 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:19 am

Thnx4thegum, very well put!!!! cheers

by moonlightbones on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:01 am

For what it's worth, as a former viewer who was chased off by the season 4 finale, at this point I don't think putting Booth and Bones together would even make me want to watch again. I'm reminded of something Rebecca said in an episode, to paraphrase, two people have a moment to either catch fire or not. Booth and Bones missed their moment much like Booth and Rebecca did. Hart and Co waited too long. Like Robert said with Remington Steele, folks stopped watching because at that point it was utterly stupid for them NOT to be together. Then it was rushed when it did happen and stunk to high heaven. So, I was on board until Hart started telling everyone that would listen that he has no plans to ever put the two of them together. But I'm not gonna watch a show where I'm not gonna get to see the MAIN REASON not materialize. I've said it before, I made that mistake with JAG and I refuse to do it again. And I'm not alone. I can name at least 20 people that stopped watching this show after last season's finale. I did give the first three episodes of season 5 a chance...but it's like I'm watching a totally different show. Booth is not even close being Booth anymore and he WAS my fav character.

I guess all my rambling is just my way of saying, it doesn't matter to me what they do now. They lost me and many more viewers already because they have waited entirely too long to give us what we want.

by DBCrazy on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:00 pm

dawnsfire wrote:Sherry's definitely on the list--but kindly remember, people, there are TWO of us to consider while bidding!
*goes off, whistling "We're in the money..."*

I know I should probably stay out of this whole forum because you guys get my head turning 'round in circles with so many possibilities but I do glance through them and sometimes put in a penny's worth. But I heard my name written so ...

Oh Dawn, since I'm already on "the list" does that mean that I don't have to join in the bidding??? Cause I went shopping today and I'm kinda tapped out right now!

Just so I'm not off-topic posting...I would like to go on record as saying that I've changed my mind. Aaaaahhh! I thought I was in the SPOILER forum!

Spoiler:: I'm betting it's B/B getting married this season. Okay, maybe that last bit doesn't belong in here, but all these threads have me confused!

by dawnsfire on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:14 pm

DBCrazy wrote:
dawnsfire wrote:Sherry's definitely on the list--but kindly remember, people, there are TWO of us to consider while bidding!
*goes off, whistling "We're in the money..."*

I know I should probably stay out of this whole forum because you guys get my head turning 'round in circles with so many possibilities but I do glance through them and sometimes put in a penny's worth. But I heard my name written so ...

Oh Dawn, since I'm already on "the list" does that mean that I don't have to join in the bidding??? Cause I went shopping today and I'm kinda tapped out right now!

Just so I'm not off-topic posting...I would like to go on record as saying that I've changed my mind. I'm betting it's B/B getting married this season. Okay, maybe that last bit doesn't belong in here, but all these threads have me confused!

Yet, that's what it means--you have free access!

I know what you mean about getting confused... so many of these threads have started to turn on the same subject that I forget where I said what!

queen

by dawnsfire on Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:41 pm

That is probably one of the biggest issues in any creative, ongoing, public endeavor--the concern over giving the fans what they want. I've seen it in books, in comics, and now TV. Here's the thing, and I'm not defending HH--I disliked S4 overall (though not one of the ones who disliked EitB...I knew it was going to be a dream); I had new fans ask me what was going on when my glowing comments and then previous eps lured them in; and so on--sometimes giving the fans what they want or listening entirely to fans can result in creative disaster (pretty common in comics these days, and it usually leads to a complete reboot and lots of confusion). Sometimes we have to trust there is a plan, even when we don't like it.
Nor am I saying they should never listen to us, either. It's one of those fine lines--when is it too much?
S4 did not follow a plan--I think Gum's right about lack of direction, which led to the inconsistencies that so many have (rightfully) railed against. They were all over the map. If things were tighter, more planned out, more consistent, we could have laughed off disasters like Double Death maybe (and do go read what the Forensic Files has to say about that--they did want it to be rather slapstick-ish loco

).
But also because of this confusion, I suspect we're harsher at times on S5 than necessary. Once burned, twice shy and all that. For the most part, I've liked the current season. Of course some eps were lackluster and you can go back and reread my reviews for exactly what I think. But there were certain eps in earlier seasons that weren't so hot, either.

HH can write--he's had some very good ones. I just don't always like the content, which is a different issue. His problem with EitB was the love letter to the fans thing--well, that, and the implication it was going to be real, no a dream, no real... I like AU, was sure it was a dream, so I was pretty cool with the whole thing until Booth woke up. But I never did get most of the inside jokes (I'm pretty sure).

queen

by THX1138 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:17 pm

Wow Gum, you had a lot to say. I've got a few thoughts, but I'll try and keep it short so don't mind me if I cut to the chase here and there.

Thnx4theGum wrote:I think the big problem when you start questioning things like this is the lack of perspective we as fans have when it comes to the television industry. We simply don't have the insider knowledge necessary to pronounce judgment on HH. Also, I think that the position that Fox has put the show in can be emphasized enough.

That's a good point, and one often overlooked. My major complaint with FOX has always been that they know how to spot great talent, they just don't know what to do with it. Every time they get a good concept show it's screwed unless they've got someone like a HH who's got the ego and, frankly, the balls to stand up and say "This is the show you're getting" and he's done that, more or less, and we've got a good series out of it.

Enter Gormagon- which is really an awesome plotline if you think about it- and they start planting the seeds and building for a rich, character-based season that was also supposed to delve into Booth's background for the first time (let's face it, S1 & 2 are all about Brennan and how she coped/s with her family issues). They also, IMO, had a clear place that they wanted to take B&B by the end of the season- I'm thinking cusp of a relationship given the kiss in Slush.

I think it's clear from the interaction between Booth and Brennan in S3 that they were on a collision course to get together. I imagine HH planned on them becoming something of a couple just before Wannabe, because that was a very, very couple-y episode and with a little tweaking it would have been easy to see Booth and Brennan new to a relationship that they haven't admitted to the FBI (Sweets), still getting used to being a couple, when "BANG" Booth gets shot, PitH happens, and Brennan's trust in Booth is shattered. Taken in that context S4 makes much, much more sense and it explains Brennan's almost schizophrenic personality. I actually made the argument that Booth's increasingly boorish an erratic behaviour in S4 was due to the increasing intercranial pressure of the tumor.

So they're chugging along when all of a sudden the Hollywood scuttlebut that had been there EXPLODES into the foreground. This is where they hit the accelerator and some of the changes start to crop up. Read the Forensic Files and you find that they rushed to finish the season and actually had an ok wrap up(Wannabe). The strike, well, it sounds like no one had any clue that the thing would last so long and affect Hollywood as it did.

The strike and FOX's handling of it were horrible for the show, there's just no arguing that point IMO, but HH did the best he could do moving the show along and keeping some sort of cohesion, as well as handling the horribly botched Gormagon story line. (To be clear, the arc was botched by the strike, not HH).

Thus you have PItH. Not a bad finale, but not satisfying for the fans...<snip>...but instead it kind of meandered its way through S4 (my mind goes to Moses and the Israelites wandering the desert; they learned some things but they could've gotten there a lot sooner).

I'm in the minority of the people who actually love PithH, enjoyed the flippin' surprise that it was Zack and not Sweets (whom I maintain is a much, much better fit for the apprentice, right down to being abused as a child.) Oh, and I freakin' love that analogy!

[caveat: I actually get the reluctance to move them forward without anything to replace the UST with, but they have one of the few couples that they could easily pull it off with.]

We are 100% in agreement. Booth and Brennan have so many issues they need to resolve that resolving the UST is a drop in the damn bucket for them. I've ghosted an entire S6 without UST and seen absolutely no problem keeping Real Life Tension (RLT) and Angst levels elevated to the point that their relationship would be the only anchor point both would have for most of the year. If I can do it I'm sure HH can.

The other major shift seemed to be that someone (maybe HH? maybe the network?) decided to test and see how Bones would work as a romantic comedy over and above a crime show; trading in black humor for lighter- sometimes campy- comedy. I think this is where the camps of fans started to divide. Some took offense at the shifting, others didn't.

Yes, starting with DTitPH they really started pushing the light romantic comedy angle on the show and honestly, it sucked ass. Bones isn't a romantic comedy kind of show, and I've enjoyed a return to the darker episodes this season (even though the overall tone remains somewhat lighter than S1-S3). I think Toughman was the only borderline episode so far this season, and there was enough angst to keep it grounded. Among Season Four episodes, DDotDD is the worst thing I've ever seen - it's just not Bones material. It's so bad, I've excise it from my memory.

But here's the kicker: we can critique and pine for the good ol' days til we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that Season four garnered the highest ratings of any other Bones season. The little engine finally had picked up steam. This to me says that you cannot write off season four as a failure because PEOPLE WERE WATCHING! Like it or not, Hart Hanson was doing his job and the network HAD to be happy. Bones was shifted the Thursday nights and instead of being pummled, they started chipping away at the other shows on this very crowded night.

I think that's a valid point however, I'd say that about a third of S4 is outstanding, and episodes like ConMan and Girl are among my favorites of the entire series, a third were good, solid TV, and a third were marginal, even bad, and there was no rhyme nor reason to the placement (though later episodes tended to be weaker) so I'm not surprised that the show gained and held viewership in S4 - it started out strong with carry over from S3, it stayed in place on Thursday (and as rough a slot as that is, it's a lot rougher to keep getting moved around), and again, if you tune in and see an episode like ConMan, tell me you're not pumped to watch the next two or three weeks of the show? I'd say that HH got lucky with S4, in that he had enough exceptional episodes to compensate for the bad decision to go 'romantic crimedy' late in the season.

S4 four finale. Guys, I really think that HH visualized himself penning an opus. An opus that paid tribute to all of his loyal viewers who had stuck with him and the show <snip>...
The problem was, something backfired and so many people didn't see it the way HH meant it. <snip> So instead of the thanks he was expecting, HH started taking a lot of grief.

HH has said before that TEitB was a love letter to the loyal fans and he'd never anticipated the backlash that followed, and he admitted in the Keck interview that it was poor execution on his part - and he's right. The fans were sold a bill of goods from HH and company about B&B getting together and it was the S4 finale, after four years we were ready for them to be together. He then delivered an episode that, as I've said before, was good as regular TV (better than good really), but was positively horrid as a season finale. An AU show is always dicey, but as a finale? It was a huge gamble and it failed. Worse, it angered much of the fan base it was aimed at because a lot of folks like myself and Moonlightbones, were more than a little disheartened. I came back at the start of S5 ready for the worst and if they'd played it differently, if they'd said "Hey, let's keep that whole romantic crimedy thing going, it was so much fun!" and that'd been what we had? I wouldn't be writing InkSlinger's because I wouldn't be watching. Instead S5 has turned out to be an interesting, and largely well written, ably directed season so far, and it's a big part of why I've become less reflexively hostile toward HH, he's done well in restoring my faith that he has a plan, even if it's not one I like, at least there's one in place.

Did you even envision the day when Bones would beat CSI in the ratings and make Survivor at least stop and acknowledge that other television exists on Thurs at 8? Or when Fox would lean so heavily on the show it did it's best to write off early on? For the first time, Fox is playing with the big boys on Thursday nights and putting up a good show of it.

Absolutely - when I started missing CSI because I no longer cared (they waited too long to get Grissom and Sarah together...hey, that sounds familiar). By then I was already heavily invested in Bones and I have been ever since.

In early spring of 2009, HH put himself out there on Twitter; again, I'm not so sure he knew what he was getting himself in for (and yeah, a part of me wonders if he wanted to be in the crowd when his opus dropped) but he did it. And he's stayed there. In spite of all of the very rude folks out there who tell him he and/or his writing is crap and who want to live in the past. So yeah, he's going to come off as egotistical sometimes b/c he's earned it: he's exec producer on a HIT TV show that's up to 100 eps. The man has talent!

First, I appreciate him not just putting himself out on Twitter, but staying there and using the tool like the rest of us. Second, I find it the height of bad taste for anyone to take him to task like that in a public forum, write a letter, post an article here (like I do), but tweeting crap at someone who's doing their job? That's just low class.

Fox is a handsy network, so we've seen their influence, but by and large they've given the writers this season. In return, the two season pickup gave the writers the chance to refocus and go back to the characters and plotting out their journeys. Thus it's already a tighter season than last year and promises to be even more so in the coming 8 episode arc. Reading HH's keynote address it seems like some events are set in stone almost and the rest develop organically as the season unfolds.

Saying FOX is handsy is like saying the ocean's big and wet. They're notorious for screwing with (around and up) TV series because for some reason each and every FOX programming exec thinks they're God's gift to any series they touch - which is funny because their track record stinks on ice. That said, I think S5 is a gift to HH for doing the yeoman's work of putting together a 25/26 episode season in S4 an letting them jerk the back half of his schedule around willy nilly. My only question is, will they continue to give him his head or will they try and reign him in?

As for season five, I love, love, LOVE Booth 2.0. <snip>...Pudding was the apex of everything that Booth 2.0 is now and I was so glad to see that his faith is still a part of him. They've given us a flawed Booth, which means they've got plenty he can work on in the coming seasons.

I've really enjoyed the subtle and not so subtle shifts that Brennan has been given too. They've really brought her character far this year and are totally priming her for a long-term relationship with Booth.

Well you know I'm a huge fan of Booth 2.0, but far from giving us things he can work on in coming seasons I see his flaws as adding dimension to his character, and I'd rather we keep them around for a while. Likewise with Brennan, I've found her journey toward Brennan 2.0 to be amazing, and I can really see them working as a couple now, they're back to where they were in S3 (pre-PitH).

I know I'm an optimist by nature...

There are two kind of people in the world, those that see the glass as half empty, and those that see the glass as half full. I'm the third kind, I want to know what bastard's been drinking out of my glass.

I know that I tend not to see the glass as half empty. But I also look at the facts and the fact is that NO ONE has the right to bash a man with the obvious talent that HH has when he has taken a show and DOUBLED it's fan base in the span of two years and taken on the other, bigger, networks. It's not fair to him!

And here you lose me. I'm sorry, I don't care for the line of reasoning that one ought temper one's criticism because the object has "talent" or, as you said earlier Hart has a hit show with 100 eps to his name. We're an equal opportunity society, not a meritocracy, and that sort of elitism rankles me to no end. I don't believe in protected classes, they engender a sense of entitlement and privilege that seems specious to me (something Booth and I have in common), more than that, once we start down that road where do we draw the line? Maybe Hart should only answer to those who've got a hit TV show with 100+ episodes to their names. Hmm, that's a mighty short list, good for him, not so much for us. Yes, the man has talent, he's also got ego, vision, hubris, an imagination, he's a gifted producer/director and even so on the odd occasion he's wrong about things (some might say very wrong). What he's entitled to is the benefit of the doubt, my opinion, and a free cup of coffee at Denny's if I ever run into him. He's not entitled to avoid criticism because he's doubled the show's audience, if anything the more successful he is the more he needs a reality check - if it helps, just imagine me standing behind him during script meetings whispering in his ear "Memore Hart, Letalis Es."
."

Once the next eight eps air, we'll have more of an indicator as to where the show's headed relationship-wise and THEN we can start in on whether or not HH & Co. are anti-shipper or just playing their cards close to the vest. They're at a unique place now where I think they all realize that something's gotta give, but the what and how much and how soon are the big factors. If this was last season, I might be more worried, as it is, I'm not. Bones always shines brighest when there is a plan and it from all indications these last episodes are designed to help us put some things into perspective and take the characters in a specific direction. It's their biggest plan yet. Should be entertaining to say the least.

Either way, I'm riding this puppy til they yank it off the air.

Gum

I agree, and the last week or so I've tempered my criticism accordingly (not because it's not fair, but to be fair, circumstances have changed). I can see where we're going, I think, and now I'm interested in how we get there. If it all works out as I think it will, then we'll all be happy and you can tell everyone you were right all along and they can lump it and be happy. If not, well, I've got plane tickets reserved and Ol' Thunder is in it's case ready to go. (Memore Hart, Vestri Patellae Letalis Es).

king

RM

by THX1138 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:52 pm

dawnsfire wrote:That is probably one of the biggest issues in any creative, ongoing, public endeavor--the concern over giving the fans what they want. I've seen it in books, in comics, and now TV. Here's the thing, and I'm not defending HH--I disliked S4 overall (though not one of the ones who disliked EitB...I knew it was going to be a dream); I had new fans ask me what was going on when my glowing comments and then previous eps lured them in; and so on--sometimes giving the fans what they want or listening entirely to fans can result in creative disaster (pretty common in comics these days, and it usually leads to a complete reboot and lots of confusion). Sometimes we have to trust there is a plan, even when we don't like it.

I found S4 to be a crapshoot - the first third was mostly solid, the middle third was ...interesting, and the back third was a freaking nightmare of mediocre episodes, great episodes, and things that should never have been written. I turned on a dozen or more friends to the show starting when TFitI aired (a great ep to hook folks with, btw)o, and watched all but two walk away from the show because, as one put it, they simply didn't know what it was supposed to be. Was it a romantic crime drama? A procedural show with a romantic/dramatic back story? A procedural commedy? I've said it before, folks say they want change or innovation, they don't, they want consistency, or in BONES case, they want continuity. S4 was hell on continuity.

Nor am I saying they should never listen to us, either. It's one of those fine lines--when is it too much?
S4 did not follow a plan--I think Gum's right about lack of direction, which led to the inconsistencies that so many have (rightfully) railed against. They were all over the map. If things were tighter, more planned out, more consistent, we could have laughed off disasters like Double Death maybe (and do go read what the Forensic Files has to say about that--they did want it to be rather slapstick-ish ).

I agree with both you and Gum, the show works best with a plan, or maybe HH works best with a plan, either way, I think S5 succeeds where S4 failed because there's a plan for S5, and one was notably missing for S4. Oh, and the fact that they intended for DDotDD to be as bad as it was? Rolling Eyes

Morons.

But also because of this confusion, I suspect we're harsher at times on S5 than necessary. Once burned, twice shy and all that. For the most part, I've liked the current season. Of course some eps were lackluster and you can go back and reread my reviews for exactly what I think. But there were certain eps in earlier seasons that weren't so hot, either.

You're spot on, of course, but I'd be happier if I'd only been burned once. Here's the thing - I give my loyalty grudgingly, but once earned it sticks. I felt screwed by S4 and insulted by TEitB, so by the time that aired I was pretty much out of free ice cream for Hart. Have I been harsh with the man? Yes. Quick to criticize, slow to forgive? Yes. Am I naturally suspicious of his motivations and distrusting? Yes and Yes. Will that change? Give me a second half of S5 that matches the first half and we'll be on better terms, make S6 the season I think it can be and I'll be in Hart's camp shoulder to shoulder with Gum. Conversely, screw the pooch and I'll be the first to piss on his cornflakes.

HH can write--he's had some very good ones. I just don't always like the content, which is a different issue. His problem with EitB was the love letter to the fans thing--well, that, and the implication it was going to be real, no a dream, no real... I like AU, was sure it was a dream, so I was pretty cool with the whole thing until Booth woke up. But I never did get most of the inside jokes (I'm pretty sure).

Yep, he's a gifted writer and creator, we simply don't agree on things from time to time. I saw TEitB as an inside joke, the roles that each person played in the lab mirroring their real world roles (or more accurately what Booth saw them as) and in many respects the whole show was a thank you to those folks who'd watched the show from the beginning - and yet as one of them I was pissed. I can take or leave AU. When it's done well it's amazing, when it's not it's a nightmare. TEitB was a bad dream, thank God in S5 we woke up.

king

RM

by dawnsfire on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:56 pm

THX1138 wrote:Yes, the man has talent, he's also got ego, vision, hubris, an imagination, he's a gifted producer/director and even so on the odd occasion he's wrong about things (some might say very wrong). What he's entitled to is the benefit of the doubt, my opinion, and a free cup of coffee at Denny's if I ever run into him. He's not entitled to avoid criticism because he's doubled the show's audience, if anything the more successful he is the more he needs a reality check - if it helps, just imagine me standing behind him during script meetings whispering in his ear "Memore Hart, Letalis Es."

RM

And in a way, he needs all those things--if he's standing up to Fox, pushing the show into shape, dealing with tempermental SAG types, unions, etc, etc... If he was sweet and mild and quiet, Bones probably would have gone off the air S1, S2 at the latest.
Not that it excuses everything, of course!

queen

by THX1138 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:02 pm

dawnsfire wrote:
THX1138 wrote:Yes, the man has talent, he's also got ego, vision, hubris, an imagination, he's a gifted producer/director and even so on the odd occasion he's wrong about things (some might say very wrong). What he's entitled to is the benefit of the doubt, my opinion, and a free cup of coffee at Denny's if I ever run into him. He's not entitled to avoid criticism because he's doubled the show's audience, if anything the more successful he is the more he needs a reality check - if it helps, just imagine me standing behind him during script meetings whispering in his ear "Memore Hart, Letalis Es."

RM
And in a way, he needs all those things--if he's standing up to Fox, pushing the show into shape, dealing with tempermental SAG types, unions, etc, etc... If he was sweet and mild and quiet, Bones probably would have gone off the air S1, S2 at the latest.
Not that it excuses everything, of course!

No, I agree. Shows with more compliant runners get steamrolled - look at Joss Whedon, the man's a genius, hell, he's Zack to Hart's Brennan. The difference between Joss and Hart? Joss is a nice guy who can't bring himself to really stick to it when he gets pressure. He folds almost every time, he did it with Buffy when the CW (TheWB) wanted to low ball their rates, and again on Fox with Firefly. Hart knows how to work the execs and he knows when to stand up to them. The problem is, when you've got ability, balls, and ego? You need someone to remind you that you're not, in fact, a god. Hart gets criticized, a lot, and he needs it, a lot. I firmly believe keeping him grounded keeps the show grounded.

king

RM

by DripPan on Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:05 pm

Thx,

I read your long comment above and respect your views.

I do disagree with you on alot of what you said but the one thing I want to point out is when you said S4 had no direction. This is not true.

I said at the very start of S4 that Brennan will have to find out that Booth is special. That was the direction of the season for B&B. It took them 3/4s of the season to get there but they did. After 'Salt in the Wound' they started setting up for S6 where Brennan is learning what it means to have a 'deep emotional connection'. In 'Cinderella' she was jealous. In 'Mask', she questioned if love was worth it. In 'EitB', she wrote a fairy tale about what she thinks it's like to be in love. This season she is learning what it really means to have a deep emotional connection.

HH got very lucky during S4. First and foremost is that DB/ED chemistry together. They are like great chefs who can turn hamburger into filet mignon. Let's add into the fact that TNT was very, very instrumental in increasing Bones' viewership. Late comers don't see the flaws like old timers do. Last, Fox started taking this show very seriously and set it up accordingly.

Like I said before, Bones was only suppose to last a couple season. When it became a success, people had to adapt. Fox did their job. HH also adapted but in the wrong direction. From 'Yanks' to 'EitB', S4 was subpar and most of it was the writing/creativity. Does that take away from the outstanding writing of previous seasons? No. It proves that even writers/producers can take a wrong turn, even HH.

When it is just one episode that is subpar, you can blame the individual writer or director. When it's a full season, then you must look at the person who is in charge of it all. It is his vision that is projected throughout the season. It is his creativity that is brought into question.

Was HH wrong in his vision about Season 4? No. He really believed that the audience would really like it. His heart was there 110% into giving the audience a good show. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' means that even with kind hearts, it's not enough.

You can blame the writer's strike and Fox for some of the mistakes during S4. They had 4 episodes left over from S3 that had to be shown. What you have to take into account is that there were 22 other episodes last season. Those are the 22 episodes I base my judgement on.

by heirofloki on Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:19 pm

I will give my vote to gum for best post ever. And also:

No, I agree. Shows with more compliant runners get steamrolled - look at Joss Whedon, the man's a genius, hell, he's Zack to Hart's Brennan. The difference between Joss and Hart? Joss is a nice guy who can't bring himself to really stick to it when he gets pressure. He folds almost every time, he did it with Buffy when the CW (TheWB) wanted to low ball their rates, and again on Fox with Firefly

LOL. I'm sorry, but I find the notion of JW somehow being timid to be outright hilarious. I mean, like, I'm actually laughing here. Joss? Is notorious, NOTORIOUS for not playing ball. He gets painted as the patron saint of the fans far to often so maybe I get where you're coming from but, seriously: lol!

(and I'm one of the people who downloaded Dr. Horrible on the date, at the time, so you know where I'm coming from)

by THX1138 on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:35 am

heirofloki wrote:I will give my vote to gum for best post ever. And also:

No, I agree. Shows with more compliant runners get steamrolled - look at Joss Whedon, the man's a genius, hell, he's Zack to Hart's Brennan. The difference between Joss and Hart? Joss is a nice guy who can't bring himself to really stick to it when he gets pressure. He folds almost every time, he did it with Buffy when the CW (TheWB) wanted to low ball their rates, and again on Fox with Firefly

LOL. I'm sorry, but I find the notion of JW somehow being timid to be outright hilarious. I mean, like, I'm actually laughing here. Joss? Is notorious, NOTORIOUS for not playing ball. He gets painted as the patron saint of the fans far to often so maybe I get where you're coming from but, seriously:

(and I'm one of the people who downloaded Dr. Horrible on the date, at the time, so you know where I'm coming from)

Hey, trust me I totally get where you're coming from - nice to meet another Dr. Horrible fan - and I'm aware of Joss' rep in the industry, and I never said he was timid - I said he folds under pressure and I stand by my comment.

The man talked a good game in negotiations with TheWB but when push came to shove he didn't shove back, he picked up his toys and went home. If it wasn't for UPN needing a show of Buffy's caliber to bolster their image BtVS would have ended at five seasons. Likewise he sought out and received unprecedented guarantees of creative control from FOX when it came to Firefly, but that did him no good when they started messing about with the show. In the end they did what they wanted and Joss, once again, picked up his toys and retreated. Honestly I don't think Fox would have kept Dollhouse on as long as it had except they learned from experience what a mistake they made with Firefly - it had nothing to do with Joss.

Lesser talents have had more luck keeping the same networks off their backs, maybe it's not a function of backbone or persistence, maybe they just know how to work the execs, what ever it is, Joss doesn't have it. Look, maybe I'm completely off base, maybe he's just had a run of bad luck, but if it is just bad luck then it goes all the way back to the original Buffy movie script. The original concept was a serious vampire story with dark humor and angst, not a some campy teen vampire comedy. What changed? The studio greenlit the project and then told Joss to re-write it as a teen comedy and he obliged. Sure, he bitched and groused about it, but he did it anyway. Folded like a cheap suit...

king

RM

by THX1138 on Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:48 am

DripPan wrote:Thx,

I read your long comment above and respect your views.

Drip, just so you know the feeling is mutual. A lot of what you've written makes sense in the context that you present, I simply disagree.

I do disagree with you on alot of what you said but the one thing I want to point out is when you said S4 had no direction. This is not true.

I said at the very start of S4 that Brennan will have to find out that Booth is special. That was the direction of the season for B&B. It took them 3/4s of the season to get there but they did. After 'Salt in the Wound' they started setting up for S6 where Brennan is learning what it means to have a 'deep emotional connection'. In 'Cinderella' she was jealous. In 'Mask', she questioned if love was worth it. In 'EitB', she wrote a fairy tale about what she thinks it's like to be in love. This season she is learning what it really means to have a deep emotional connection.

I'll conceed that there was some direction but to be honest it feels forced. I honestly think the strike was the cause of much of the problem here, the more I think of it the more I think Hart intened Booth and Brennan to get together sometime after the Christmas episode, possibly in Wannabe, only to have their tenative relationship dashed by Booth's death and the "betrayal" she experienced in PitH. I think S4 was supposed to be the season of reconciliation - it became the season of discovery for Brennan because that was denied her in S3.

S3 was definitely meant to be Brennan's season of growth, her emotional awakening. Look at how much softer an more open she is in S3, we don't see that from her in S4. In S4 she vacillates between warm and expressive (TFitI) to outright clueless (ConMan) to emotionally stunted (Otter). The tag scenes for most of S4 felt forced, the fluff that came so naturally the previous three seasons was largely replaced with contrived situations such as them sharing a bed in Double Trouble, only a handful of episodes - notably ConMan, Fire, and Mask - gave us the B&B we'd come to know the previous three years. And yes, I'm sure someone will point to the infamous speech Brennan gave at the end of Cinderella, but that just goes to prove my point. Brennan confesses to Booth that she's jealous of everyone believing in love and all he can do is spout tired platitudes? That's not what he'd have done the season before, or now in S5. In fact just as the S5 Booth is more akin to the S1/S2 Booth of old, likewise the S5 Brennan we see resembles a mature version of the S3 Brennan, and bears little resemblance to the emotionally schizophrenic wreck of a woman we saw in S4.

Was there an overall theme in S4, I can begrudgingly grant that there was, but it was poorly done and hampered by the overall lack of consistency and continuity in the show itself.

HH got very lucky during S4. First and foremost is that DB/ED chemistry together. They are like great chefs who can turn hamburger into filet mignon. Let's add into the fact that TNT was very, very instrumental in increasing Bones' viewership. Late comers don't see the flaws like old timers do. Last, Fox started taking this show very seriously and set it up accordingly.

Here we agree whole heartedly. If not for David and Emily, S4 would have tanked the show. There are still serious fans of the first three seasons who, after watching S4, left the show. I know at least a dozen myself, Mlb said she knew about 20, and yes (nod to Gum) new fans came to the show in droves, but a lot of fans left in droves as well. S4 was a divisive season, mayhap it needed to be that for the show to grow and prosper, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Like I said before, Bones was only suppose to last a couple season. When it became a success, people had to adapt. Fox did their job. HH also adapted but in the wrong direction. From 'Yanks' to 'EitB', S4 was subpar and most of it was the writing/creativity. Does that take away from the outstanding writing of previous seasons? No. It proves that even writers/producers can take a wrong turn, even HH.

I think we're largely in agreement here; S1 - S3 were good enough to keep me going through the dark times of S4, and eps like Conman, Fire, and Mask kept me going the rest of the way. I don't doubt that HH and company were surprised by it's success, and it's clear to me that seasons 1&2 followed a specific arc, and to that extent S3 was following an arc as well, one that was a logical extension of S1 & S2. What beggars belief is that he wasn't able to better handle the transition into S4. It's as if success was so unexpected he never planned for the eventuality. One wonders what the show would look like now if he'd had a full 22 episodes in S3, and been able to follow the three season arc to it's logical conclusion (B&B together sometime after Santa ending at Wannabe/Pain), how different would last season have been - would they be together, reconciled, would they have spent last season estranged, working as partners and nothing more, or would they have fallen back into each other's orbits? Sadly this speculation is now the stuff of fandom, since we'll never really know.

When it is just one episode that is subpar, you can blame the individual writer or director. When it's a full season, then you must look at the person who is in charge of it all. It is his vision that is projected throughout the season. It is his creativity that is brought into question.

Was HH wrong in his vision about Season 4? No. He really believed that the audience would really like it. His heart was there 110% into giving the audience a good show. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' means that even with kind hearts, it's not enough.

You can blame the writer's strike and Fox for some of the mistakes during S4. They had 4 episodes left over from S3 that had to be shown. What you have to take into account is that there were 22 other episodes last season. Those are the 22 episodes I base my judgement on.

I think we're more in agreement that you' believe, but however you judge S4 you must admit there was a lack of consistency and continuity, character development was erratic, and occasionally non-sensical with both Booth and Brennan regressing one week and leap frogging the next. I remain dissapointed in S4's overall quality, and though I can find at least a half dozen episodes that I'd gladly sing the praises of it remains the weakest of the five seasons to date (and yes, I mean that). You say HH gave 110%, then perhaps 26 episodes was simply too many for one season, mayhap he was simply spread too thin. Oh, and I do blame the strike and Fox for much of the show's ills - in S3. That there were lingering effects in S4 I will concede, but the thing that boggles is that the season got weaker as it progressed, not stronger. That is what bothers me so.

king

RM