attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
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attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
There are many fans upset with the revelation that our beloved Zack could be gone. The fact that he could be a killer makes them mad.
My thought? It makes sense.
Here's why.
Purpose. Zack desperately wanted a purpose. He tried to find it in Iraq but they sent him home due to 'failure to assimilate' and with the idea that it was wrong that the Jeffersonian was the only place he could fit. He needed to find his own purpose.
Note: Sweets pointed out early in Season 3 that the silver skeleton was 'Gormogon's sole purpose. Zack was not there for that but it was a hint if a connection. On re-watching the Gormogon episodes this past Sunday that scene was my first hint that Zack was the apprentice.
Personality. Zack's entire personality, as most people view the concept, was defined by imitating others. His sole quirks and markers were the result of his rational brain. His hobbies and loves all had rational backing. Model airplanes? Applied engineering. Love of singing? Calculated to win friends. King of the Lab? You could see that even when he claimed the title, Zack often had a look of 'I don't get this game'. He played it because Hodgins did. Being correct in his science was all Zack needed. Hodgins even said to him at one point, "If you're ever going to properly imitate being human..." We had all the signs and what they all pointed to was a weak personality who was primed for someone with a stronger personality to come in and give him purpose without trying to influence Zack's own personality.
Most of the people around Zack had someone, in the end. Hodgins and Angela had each other. And more and more Brennan, his scientific mentor and mother figure, had Booth. Cam was becoming his new mother figure but it seemed to be too little, too late. Zack needed a strong guide and his main ones - Hodgins and Brennan - now had other concerns. That left him ripe for the Master's picking.
But what truly made the transition to killer possible? His supreme governing nature: The Rational. The one thing Zack could truly lay claim to was his intellect and rational being. In Season 1 he was asked what he would do if someone presented him with an irrefutable argument to do something others would deem wrong. His answer? Not without checking with Dr. Brennan, Angela, and others first. But they have drawn more and more into other relationships leaving him more isolated, more vulnerable.
Logic and reason were the only things Zack could call his own. Brennan is very much like Zack, but with her strong emotional attachment to Booth and reverence for life her rational brain is tempered by a vibrant heart. This is how she knew exactly how Zack reached his conclusions, without falling prey to them herself.
(Note: I cried like crazy on re-watching this scene.)
Zack: If you knew what I know, you'd understand. You'd be proud of me.
Brennan: I've always been proud of you, Zack. I've never met anyone more rational or intelligent. But there's a fault in your logic.
Zack: With all due respect, you aren't cognizant of his logic.
Brennan: Assumption number 1: Secret societies exist.
Zack: Accepted. Hodgins has been explaining this to me for years.
Brennan: Assumption number 2: The human experience is adversely affected by secret societies.
Zack: Accepted.
Brennan: Assumption number 3: Attacking and killing members of secret societies will have an ameliorating (improving) affect on the human experience.
Zack: Accepted.
Brennan: All of your assumptions are built on a first principle, Zack. To wit: the historical human experience as a whole is more important than a single person's life.
Zack: Yes.
Brennan: Yet you risked it all so you wouldn't hurt Hodgins.
I really cried when they did...
Zack is more rational but Brennan is more complete. She acknowledges, to a point, her heart and therefore can incorporate it into her decision-making. By ignoring it or not understanding it Zack is even more at it's mercy. He realized this too late.
This wasn't as sudden as it seemed, to me. It was foreshadowed heavily in 'The Verdict in the Story'. Zack made mistakes? He could make a bigger one. Brennan is rationally capable of taking a life? Then Zack most definitely is. But there's a difference. Brennan could do it to rationally head off a death of a loved one: brain tempered by heart. Zack could do it on the basis of any irrefutable argument. Personal relationships need not, and should not, be involved.
Zack is not insane and Sweets knows it. Some might rationally try to argue he is in some ways more highly evolved, beyond what society can handle. Science is striving to create robots unconcerned with emotions. Personally, though, I think it could be a bit exhausting to have a robot to which you must prove the reasoning for every command...
We're not supposed to see Zack as 'bad'. For all his intellect and all his logic he never could grasp the one most important aspect of the human condition:
Booth: Brain and Heart, Bones. Brain and Heart.
Zack missed the heart completely. And for that we should feel sad.
My thought? It makes sense.
Here's why.
Purpose. Zack desperately wanted a purpose. He tried to find it in Iraq but they sent him home due to 'failure to assimilate' and with the idea that it was wrong that the Jeffersonian was the only place he could fit. He needed to find his own purpose.
Note: Sweets pointed out early in Season 3 that the silver skeleton was 'Gormogon's sole purpose. Zack was not there for that but it was a hint if a connection. On re-watching the Gormogon episodes this past Sunday that scene was my first hint that Zack was the apprentice.
Personality. Zack's entire personality, as most people view the concept, was defined by imitating others. His sole quirks and markers were the result of his rational brain. His hobbies and loves all had rational backing. Model airplanes? Applied engineering. Love of singing? Calculated to win friends. King of the Lab? You could see that even when he claimed the title, Zack often had a look of 'I don't get this game'. He played it because Hodgins did. Being correct in his science was all Zack needed. Hodgins even said to him at one point, "If you're ever going to properly imitate being human..." We had all the signs and what they all pointed to was a weak personality who was primed for someone with a stronger personality to come in and give him purpose without trying to influence Zack's own personality.
Most of the people around Zack had someone, in the end. Hodgins and Angela had each other. And more and more Brennan, his scientific mentor and mother figure, had Booth. Cam was becoming his new mother figure but it seemed to be too little, too late. Zack needed a strong guide and his main ones - Hodgins and Brennan - now had other concerns. That left him ripe for the Master's picking.
But what truly made the transition to killer possible? His supreme governing nature: The Rational. The one thing Zack could truly lay claim to was his intellect and rational being. In Season 1 he was asked what he would do if someone presented him with an irrefutable argument to do something others would deem wrong. His answer? Not without checking with Dr. Brennan, Angela, and others first. But they have drawn more and more into other relationships leaving him more isolated, more vulnerable.
Logic and reason were the only things Zack could call his own. Brennan is very much like Zack, but with her strong emotional attachment to Booth and reverence for life her rational brain is tempered by a vibrant heart. This is how she knew exactly how Zack reached his conclusions, without falling prey to them herself.
(Note: I cried like crazy on re-watching this scene.)
Zack: If you knew what I know, you'd understand. You'd be proud of me.
Brennan: I've always been proud of you, Zack. I've never met anyone more rational or intelligent. But there's a fault in your logic.
Zack: With all due respect, you aren't cognizant of his logic.
Brennan: Assumption number 1: Secret societies exist.
Zack: Accepted. Hodgins has been explaining this to me for years.
Brennan: Assumption number 2: The human experience is adversely affected by secret societies.
Zack: Accepted.
Brennan: Assumption number 3: Attacking and killing members of secret societies will have an ameliorating (improving) affect on the human experience.
Zack: Accepted.
Brennan: All of your assumptions are built on a first principle, Zack. To wit: the historical human experience as a whole is more important than a single person's life.
Zack: Yes.
Brennan: Yet you risked it all so you wouldn't hurt Hodgins.
I really cried when they did...
Zack is more rational but Brennan is more complete. She acknowledges, to a point, her heart and therefore can incorporate it into her decision-making. By ignoring it or not understanding it Zack is even more at it's mercy. He realized this too late.
This wasn't as sudden as it seemed, to me. It was foreshadowed heavily in 'The Verdict in the Story'. Zack made mistakes? He could make a bigger one. Brennan is rationally capable of taking a life? Then Zack most definitely is. But there's a difference. Brennan could do it to rationally head off a death of a loved one: brain tempered by heart. Zack could do it on the basis of any irrefutable argument. Personal relationships need not, and should not, be involved.
Zack is not insane and Sweets knows it. Some might rationally try to argue he is in some ways more highly evolved, beyond what society can handle. Science is striving to create robots unconcerned with emotions. Personally, though, I think it could be a bit exhausting to have a robot to which you must prove the reasoning for every command...
We're not supposed to see Zack as 'bad'. For all his intellect and all his logic he never could grasp the one most important aspect of the human condition:
Booth: Brain and Heart, Bones. Brain and Heart.
Zack missed the heart completely. And for that we should feel sad.

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 09:08:41 AM
karlia
still you made a good point but this isn't our Zack..this was more like plot-twisted-forced-into Zack..our Zack would have never done it...they just squeezed him into the plot as they needed someone from the team to be the bad guy...and who else but Zack!
karlia
still you made a good point but this isn't our Zack..this was more like plot-twisted-forced-into Zack..our Zack would have never done it...they just squeezed him into the plot as they needed someone from the team to be the bad guy...and who else but Zack!

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 12:21:07 AM
Sarah9488
I think Angela got it when he said that Zack loved Brennan as much as he was capable of.
We all said it could be Zack if Gormogon would logic his way. But actually, and what sounds more like the Zack I believed I knew, Caroline got it right.
A weak person influenced by someone with a strong personality.
I think this is what Zack is... a weak person. We never saw him as weak and lonely because Booth mentioned to Brennan that the squints are his family.
You saw it the right way, Evi. With everyone having a significant other. But I want to add: Booth and Bones are the centre. Brennan takes Angela with her because she's her best friend. And Angela took Hodgins into the group. Not to forget that both of them also share a friendship with Booth.
Cam isn't such a big part of the family, but she is a strong personality. And she has this connection to Booth.
Of course, Zack belongs to them as well. But as a kind of third party through Hodgins, maybe Angela. And he's only Brennan's grad student. It's more of a professional relationship. So he wants to impress Brennan to come closer to them all.
He doesn't have no heart. Otherwise, her wouldn't have tried to save Hodgins. In the Boy in the Bush, he has problems with these small remains. Brennan tells him it'll be easier if he is detached. He learns to become all imperical. And while Brennan discovers the more human/emotional side of herself and learns that it's good to let someone through your walls, Zack hides his feelings more and more. The gap between Zack and the others becomes bigger and bigger.
He goes to Iraq and can't fit in. Then there's this master with all his great ideas and logic and shows Zack that he can fit in. That he can do sth for the bigger purpose than just himself.
And even here, he just wants to impress Brennan. Hence, the confession scene.
This is why I think Brennan's reaction to all these gifts to Zack by all, but herself is quite logical. Maybe she should have given him more intention. Then again, she always complimented his skills.
Sweets is right, Zack isn't insane. But Caroline definitely got it right for me.
As an addition: I found it weird that Zack never tried human flesh. I remember that Brennan said it would be interesting for her as a scientist to try human flesh in The Man in the Bear, hence I figured Zack would try it. But him 'only' killing the lobbyist is a little disappointing, here.
Evi, you might want to change the title for people who don't know it yet. That would be more than a hint...
Sarah9488
I think Angela got it when he said that Zack loved Brennan as much as he was capable of.
We all said it could be Zack if Gormogon would logic his way. But actually, and what sounds more like the Zack I believed I knew, Caroline got it right.
A weak person influenced by someone with a strong personality.
I think this is what Zack is... a weak person. We never saw him as weak and lonely because Booth mentioned to Brennan that the squints are his family.
You saw it the right way, Evi. With everyone having a significant other. But I want to add: Booth and Bones are the centre. Brennan takes Angela with her because she's her best friend. And Angela took Hodgins into the group. Not to forget that both of them also share a friendship with Booth.
Cam isn't such a big part of the family, but she is a strong personality. And she has this connection to Booth.
Of course, Zack belongs to them as well. But as a kind of third party through Hodgins, maybe Angela. And he's only Brennan's grad student. It's more of a professional relationship. So he wants to impress Brennan to come closer to them all.
He doesn't have no heart. Otherwise, her wouldn't have tried to save Hodgins. In the Boy in the Bush, he has problems with these small remains. Brennan tells him it'll be easier if he is detached. He learns to become all imperical. And while Brennan discovers the more human/emotional side of herself and learns that it's good to let someone through your walls, Zack hides his feelings more and more. The gap between Zack and the others becomes bigger and bigger.
He goes to Iraq and can't fit in. Then there's this master with all his great ideas and logic and shows Zack that he can fit in. That he can do sth for the bigger purpose than just himself.
And even here, he just wants to impress Brennan. Hence, the confession scene.
This is why I think Brennan's reaction to all these gifts to Zack by all, but herself is quite logical. Maybe she should have given him more intention. Then again, she always complimented his skills.
Sweets is right, Zack isn't insane. But Caroline definitely got it right for me.
As an addition: I found it weird that Zack never tried human flesh. I remember that Brennan said it would be interesting for her as a scientist to try human flesh in The Man in the Bear, hence I figured Zack would try it. But him 'only' killing the lobbyist is a little disappointing, here.
Evi, you might want to change the title for people who don't know it yet. That would be more than a hint...

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 01:08:20 PM
Eviaded
Sorry! Changed.
Eviaded
Sorry! Changed.

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 01:06:28 PM
Turi ray of sunshine
You know I get all of the things you are saying but there is one more thing.
In the explosion I know Zach miscalculated and made it a lot more strong. But even then I think Brennan asked him at one point. "You knew what will happen to your hands". We all say that Zach is all about the science; if he was he would have thought that by risking exposion his hands to such a powerful blast his carrer would more than likely be over! if the whole cannibal thing came to light it would ALL BE OVER FOR HIM! why risk so much? I mean sometime it must have crossed his mind that Brennan or anybody on the team wouldn't approve of the murders it's just not logical. At least not to me anyways!
I am loving how people have different takes on this
Turi ray of sunshine
You know I get all of the things you are saying but there is one more thing.
In the explosion I know Zach miscalculated and made it a lot more strong. But even then I think Brennan asked him at one point. "You knew what will happen to your hands". We all say that Zach is all about the science; if he was he would have thought that by risking exposion his hands to such a powerful blast his carrer would more than likely be over! if the whole cannibal thing came to light it would ALL BE OVER FOR HIM! why risk so much? I mean sometime it must have crossed his mind that Brennan or anybody on the team wouldn't approve of the murders it's just not logical. At least not to me anyways!
I am loving how people have different takes on this

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 02:07:04 PM
Eviaded
His life was one of the lives she references in the 'first principle' all the other assumptions were based on. "The historical human experience as a whole is more important than a single person's life." His included. He broke it for Hodgins though, without realizing it.
Eviaded
His life was one of the lives she references in the 'first principle' all the other assumptions were based on. "The historical human experience as a whole is more important than a single person's life." His included. He broke it for Hodgins though, without realizing it.

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 02:26:17 PM
Turi ray of sunshine
Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me! and it may be because we don't have enough of a background story and while I understand the whole human historical experience and all my brain can't wrap itself around the story
Turi ray of sunshine
Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me! and it may be because we don't have enough of a background story and while I understand the whole human historical experience and all my brain can't wrap itself around the story

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 05:11:49 PM
Sarah9488
also, he intended to leave the hospital anyways. Maybe he planned on starting a new life.
Though I just came to the conclusion that he wanted to be caught. Zack would be smart enough to cover it all up. To work longer at the Jeffersonian...
Sarah9488
also, he intended to leave the hospital anyways. Maybe he planned on starting a new life.
Though I just came to the conclusion that he wanted to be caught. Zack would be smart enough to cover it all up. To work longer at the Jeffersonian...

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 05:45:54 PM
SnoopGirl
I can no more understand why Zach was picked as apprentice than if it was Booth.
SnoopGirl
I can no more understand why Zach was picked as apprentice than if it was Booth.

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 05:51:15 PM
magicstar
it is not logical to me at all. I have never known zach to lie or deceive before and dont think he is even capable. It seemed out of character to me....they needed a killer, they wanted a shock ending...so zach got it!!!!, it would have made more sense being sweets, he is a little odd too and is able to be manipulative...hmmmm!
magicstar
it is not logical to me at all. I have never known zach to lie or deceive before and dont think he is even capable. It seemed out of character to me....they needed a killer, they wanted a shock ending...so zach got it!!!!, it would have made more sense being sweets, he is a little odd too and is able to be manipulative...hmmmm!

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 05:56:31 PM
Eviaded
I was hoping it would be sweets...I don't like him
Eviaded
I was hoping it would be sweets...I don't like him

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 06:01:30 PM
Bella Loony
Evi: Seriously, I truly think you nailed it. I never really went into too much depth into Zach's character, but when you lay it out like that, it's pretty hard to dispute. I think it is a very smart and intellectual way to look at his character and maybe you see the depths that the writers were hoping we all would. Really thorough and concise research, I totally buy it now!
Bella
Bella Loony
Eviaded wrote : There are many fans upset with the revelation that our beloved Zack could be gone. The fact that he could be a killer makes them mad.
My thought? It makes sense.
Here's why.
Purpose. Zack desperately wanted a purpose. He tried to find it in Iraq but they sent him home due to 'failure to assimilate' and with the idea that it was wrong that the Jeffersonian was the only place he could fit. He needed to find his own purpose.
Note: Sweets pointed out early in Season 3 that the silver skeleton was 'Gormogon's sole purpose. Zack was not there for that but it was a hint if a connection. On re-watching the Gormogon episodes this past Sunday that scene was my first hint that Zack was the apprentice.
Personality. Zack's entire personality, as most people view the concept, was defined by imitating others. His sole quirks and markers were the result of his rational brain. His hobbies and loves all had rational backing. Model airplanes? Applied engineering. Love of singing? Calculated to win friends. King of the Lab? You could see that even when he claimed the title, Zack often had a look of 'I don't get this game'. He played it because Hodgins did. Being correct in his science was all Zack needed. Hodgins even said to him at one point, "If you're ever going to properly imitate being human..." We had all the signs and what they all pointed to was a weak personality who was primed for someone with a stronger personality to come in and give him purpose without trying to influence Zack's own personality.
Most of the people around Zack had someone, in the end. Hodgins and Angela had each other. And more and more Brennan, his scientific mentor and mother figure, had Booth. Cam was becoming his new mother figure but it seemed to be too little, too late. Zack needed a strong guide and his main ones - Hodgins and Brennan - now had other concerns. That left him ripe for the Master's picking.
But what truly made the transition to killer possible? His supreme governing nature: The Rational. The one thing Zack could truly lay claim to was his intellect and rational being. In Season 1 he was asked what he would do if someone presented him with an irrefutable argument to do something others would deem wrong. His answer? Not without checking with Dr. Brennan, Angela, and others first. But they have drawn more and more into other relationships leaving him more isolated, more vulnerable.
Logic and reason were the only things Zack could call his own. Brennan is very much like Zack, but with her strong emotional attachment to Booth and reverence for life her rational brain is tempered by a vibrant heart. This is how she knew exactly how Zack reached his conclusions, without falling prey to them herself.
(Note: I cried like crazy on re-watching this scene.)
Zack: If you knew what I know, you'd understand. You'd be proud of me.
Brennan: I've always been proud of you, Zack. I've never met anyone more rational or intelligent. But there's a fault in your logic.
Zack: With all due respect, you aren't cognizant of his logic.
Brennan: Assumption number 1: Secret societies exist.
Zack: Accepted. Hodgins has been explaining this to me for years.
Brennan: Assumption number 2: The human experience is adversely affected by secret societies.
Zack: Accepted.
Brennan: Assumption number 3: Attacking and killing members of secret societies will have an ameliorating (improving) affect on the human experience.
Zack: Accepted.
Brennan: All of your assumptions are built on a first principle, Zack. To wit: the historical human experience as a whole is more important than a single person's life.
Zack: Yes.
Brennan: Yet you risked it all so you wouldn't hurt Hodgins.
I really cried when they did...
Zack is more rational but Brennan is more complete. She acknowledges, to a point, her heart and therefore can incorporate it into her decision-making. By ignoring it or not understanding it Zack is even more at it's mercy. He realized this too late.
This wasn't as sudden as it seemed, to me. It was foreshadowed heavily in 'The Verdict in the Story'. Zack made mistakes? He could make a bigger one. Brennan is rationally capable of taking a life? Then Zack most definitely is. But there's a difference. Brennan could do it to rationally head off a death of a loved one: brain tempered by heart. Zack could do it on the basis of any irrefutable argument. Personal relationships need not, and should not, be involved.
Zack is not insane and Sweets knows it. Some might rationally try to argue he is in some ways more highly evolved, beyond what society can handle. Science is striving to create robots unconcerned with emotions. Personally, though, I think it could be a bit exhausting to have a robot to which you must prove the reasoning for every command...
We're not supposed to see Zack as 'bad'. For all his intellect and all his logic he never could grasp the one most important aspect of the human condition:
Booth: Brain and Heart, Bones. Brain and Heart.
Zack missed the heart completely. And for that we should feel sad.
Evi: Seriously, I truly think you nailed it. I never really went into too much depth into Zach's character, but when you lay it out like that, it's pretty hard to dispute. I think it is a very smart and intellectual way to look at his character and maybe you see the depths that the writers were hoping we all would. Really thorough and concise research, I totally buy it now!
Bella

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 20/05/2008 06:07:51 PM
flyersfan35
Wow, evi, that was very well thought out. And I agree with most of it...but, because I've always loved Zach, I just don't want to believe it...but I do, sadly...
flyersfan35
Wow, evi, that was very well thought out. And I agree with most of it...but, because I've always loved Zach, I just don't want to believe it...but I do, sadly...

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 21/05/2008 02:04:53 AM
clairebear_nz
I was thinking about this today, during stats, because who works in stats?
I think Zack wanted a person as well. He had Brennan to start with, but as she got closer to Booth and he also wasn't her grad student anymore, their relationship changed. He used to have Hodgins, but Hodgins began his relationship with Angela, Zach at least partially lost his friend. Therefore, especially after Iraq, Zach didn't have a person to turn to, he probably felt lonely and confused, so he had no one to turn up, so was easy pickings for Gormagon, who I think probably targeted him because people like that had tell inherently who the weak, the lovely, the disconnected and the outcasts are, and also because Zach was very useful to him.
clairebear_nz
I was thinking about this today, during stats, because who works in stats?
I think Zack wanted a person as well. He had Brennan to start with, but as she got closer to Booth and he also wasn't her grad student anymore, their relationship changed. He used to have Hodgins, but Hodgins began his relationship with Angela, Zach at least partially lost his friend. Therefore, especially after Iraq, Zach didn't have a person to turn to, he probably felt lonely and confused, so he had no one to turn up, so was easy pickings for Gormagon, who I think probably targeted him because people like that had tell inherently who the weak, the lovely, the disconnected and the outcasts are, and also because Zach was very useful to him.

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Re: attempting to logically explain zack by Eviaded Posted 20/05/2008
Posted 21/05/2008 03:30:33 AM
SquirtandMilo
I can see why it was him rationally. Doesn't mean that I like it. I hate what they did to our Zack!
SquirtandMilo
I can see why it was him rationally. Doesn't mean that I like it. I hate what they did to our Zack!

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Similar topics» Zackary (Zack)
» Ballast(2008)
» En TU Ausencia (In Your Absence) (2008)
» 2008 National Titles
» Ragnarok WORLD Championship Oct.18-19 2008.
» Ballast(2008)
» En TU Ausencia (In Your Absence) (2008)
» 2008 National Titles
» Ragnarok WORLD Championship Oct.18-19 2008.
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